Essentially, Bill Maher makes the point that if one is religious, one can't be intelligent. In an interview with NY Times columnist Ross Douhat (who is Catholic), Mr. Douhat defends the point. While there might be points to make on both sides, I discourage the idea of these broad conclusions without much basis and support - maybe it makes for Good Comedy, but it's Not Good Intellectual Thought. (Reminder: Mr. Maher is doing a comedy show.)
Does Religious Belief Mean You're Not An Intellectual?
Mr. Maher's show seems to be about Mr. Maher mugging smug for the camera, and having a cheering audience. I have a close friend who very much likes Mr. Maher's comedy, and while I see some comedic moments, Mr. Maher is distracting in his close-mindedness and apparent disdain for those who have opinions different than him. Mr. Maher is a champion of various political causes (which I happen to agree with), but just because we are much-aligned politically, that doesn't imply that I'm in agreement with Mr. Maher's show or his rhetorical tactics.Mr. Maher believes he is an intellectual, and a strong one, yet I find his on-air presence to be so intellectually un-curious of others' ideas. If you watch the video, I think you'll find him pushing his perspective more than listening to Mr. Douhat's ideas.
I should also explain that I happen to disagree with good portions of Mr. Douhat's politics (as expressed in his NY Times column), but I wanted to hear his thinking. Here is the interview:
Around 2:30 in the video, Mr. Douhat explains how the idea that Genesis describes literally (as some believe) the Earth was created in six days is only a recent concoction of 19th century religious fundamentalism and, in fact, religious leaders back to the 1st century did not believe the Genesis account of The Six Days Of Creation as a statement of scientific fact. Now Mr. Maher, going for the easy (cheap?) rhetorical shot, says "So you're giving yourself license to say 'The Bible Is Bullsh*t', right?".
Truly, as a intellectual, would one really want to establish such a broad conclusory point so early on? Certainly, as a rhetorician that broad claim exposes one, and Mr. Douhat torpedoes that later on: a sinking, unrecoverable ship Mr. Maher clings to. Around 5:30 and onward Mr. Maher wants to get to the point that, in essence, people believe in gods like Zeus and they were just myths, so why do intellectual people believe in God? Mr. Douhat brings out the torpedo, aims, and fires: Mr. Maher and Mr. Douhat agree that people believe in metaphysical ideas, and then Mr. Douhat asks: why do people believe in Universal Rights, yet one cannot see them under a microscope? Sunk.
In the end, it seems that Mr. Maher wants to tie everything back to 9/11 with terrorists flying planes into buildings based upon their religious beliefs, and thus Religion Is Wrong - that's essentially Mr. Maher's point. Mr. Maher states further that genocide and mass murder always come from people based upon their religious beliefs. Did you know Mr. Douhat had a second torpedo? (ha ha ha!) Mr. Douhat points out the genocide under Stalin and the lack of religious beliefs (except for the dead Christians). Mr. Maher's ship is sinking faster.
Mr. Maher then flails with the idea that the Ten Commandments includes Thou Shalt Not Kill, so how do we explain wars? I think Mr. Maher's rhetorical tactic here is to show religious people don't even follow their religion, so we (Mr. Maher and audience) can just dismiss them.
Teachings of Catholics
As both a general and a specific answer to this question, I suggest reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the Vatican's website that details much of the teachings of the Catholic Church. You'll find that the Church, almost always, sides with scientific thought, medicine, evolutionary biology (Darwinism), and including the Big Bang theory of the universe. The Catholic Church disagrees with notions of "intelligent design" and "creationism" (unless you believe "creationism" is of the Darwin evolutionary kind). Curious? Just search for:catechism of catholic church evolutionor replace evolution with other things you're curious about. Regarding Mr. Maher and the notion of war, the Catholic teachings to not believe war is always unjust, but there are several steps in the teaching, see the link to the catechism, and here is an excerpt, with paragraph 2309 explaining a rationale for a just war. As you're reading this, I ask you to take notice that the Catholic Church has a detailed and nuanced understanding of Thou Shalt Not Kill, and the Church's understanding is modern in that it reflects the concerns of nuclear, chemical, and biological modes of warfare.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P81.HTM
PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
CHAPTER TWO YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF
Article 5 THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT
III. Safeguarding Peace
III. Safeguarding Peace
Peace
2302 By recalling the commandment, "You shall not kill," our Lord asked for peace of heart and denounced murderous anger and hatred as immoral. Anger is a desire for revenge. "To desire vengeance in order to do evil to someone who should be punished is illicit," but it is praiseworthy to impose restitution "to correct vices and maintain justice." If anger reaches the point of a deliberate desire to kill or seriously wound a neighbor, it is gravely against charity; it is a mortal sin. the Lord says, "Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."
2303 Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm. "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven."
2304 Respect for and development of human life require peace. Peace is not merely the absence of war, and it is not limited to maintaining a balance of powers between adversaries. Peace cannot be attained on earth without safeguarding the goods of persons, free communication among men, respect for the dignity of persons and peoples, and the assiduous practice of fraternity. Peace is "the tranquillity of order." Peace is the work of justice and the effect of charity.
2305 Earthly peace is the image and fruit of the peace of Christ, the messianic "Prince of Peace." By the blood of his Cross, "in his own person he killed the hostility," he reconciled men with God and made his Church the sacrament of the unity of the human race and of its union with God. "He is our peace." He has declared: "Blessed are the peacemakers."
2306 Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risks of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.
Avoiding war
2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.
2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."
2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. the gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. the power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.
2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense. Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.
2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.
2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."
2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely. Actions deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes, as are the orders that command such actions. Blind obedience does not suffice to excuse those who carry them out. Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin. One is morally bound to resist orders that command genocide.
2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation." A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.
[...]I believe many readers will be surprised as to how much thought is given to topics like these in the official Catholic teachings. Now, that's not suggesting that you must be religious in your thinking, it just means that some of their worlds faiths have given significant thought to modern issues. My (non-Catholic) Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist friends have similar reports about their religions.
Do Atheists Believe In Freedom Of Religion?
Hmm, let's try to narrow this a bit. I personally know atheists, and I was once an atheist myself. Mr. Maher is an atheist. Now Mr. Maher and other atheists (such as a very close friend who shall remain nameless) believe that God does not exist. I don't have a problem with that. And, as a former atheist yet still a hyperrationalist, I can completely understand that perspective: we're just a bag of chemicals, our lives are this bag of stuff operating according to the laws of physics and chemistry, and when we die our bodies merely decompose, as per the usual laws of chemistry - there's no soul, no Heaven, and we our world is formulated upon the sciences with no divine intervention.Ok, it's reasonable for people be atheists. And I'd add that there are people who aren't really sure whether there is or isn't a God, and let's call them agnostic: the distinction being that atheists are certain there is no God, whereas agnostics have uncertainty about the existence of God. In that sense, we'd probably put Einstein in the agnostic category because of his uncertainties.
However, we can see this distinction clearer in mathematical terms, when N is the number of gods:
atheists: believe N must be 0It seems there is branch of atheists (a sect?) who feel, not only are they zero-gods people, but they are dismissive of others who have religious beliefs. Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry on New Atheism:
monotheists (Judaism, Christianity, Islam): believe N must be 1
other theists: believe N >= 1
agnostic: not sure what number N is
New Atheism
New Atheism, also called militant atheism and fundamentalist atheism, is a movement promoted by some atheists of the twenty-first century. This modern-day atheism and secularism is advanced by critics of religion, a group of modern atheist thinkers and writers who advocate the view that superstition, religion and irrationalism should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized, and exposed by rational argument wherever their influence arises in government, education and politics. The phrase "New Atheism" was coined by Gary Wolf in a 2006 article in Wired magazine. [...]I believe these kinds of atheists, which I call militant atheists, look to impose their believe that "N equals 0", i.e., there must be no God. President Roosevelt (FDR) enumerated in a war-time speech the Four (universal) Freedoms in the 1941 State of the Union address to Congress:
- Freedom of speech
- Freedom of worship
- Freedom from want
- Freedom from fear
If one believes these Four Freedoms apply to all humans, as they were a founding principle of the United Nations within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
"Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed the highest aspiration of the common people...."
then this is the kind of "belief" in Universal Human Rights (albeit a reasonable and worthwhile belief) that Mr. Douhat claims are the kinds of metaphysical beliefs that people have, no different than religious beliefs, and similarly cannot be discovered or revealed with a microscope and such.
In fact, one might see Mr. Maher's disdain for religious believers as inconsistent with the US Constitution First Amendment's Religious Establishment clause:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; [...]
Now Mr. Maher has no obligation in his show to permit all thoughts and all religious views, but if you're going to have a discussion of religion, at least be open-minded. Or to put it more starkly, the US Government exhibits more Freedom of Worship than Mr. Maher's show:
Imagine if the official US Government position were that Religious Belief Implies A Lack of Intelligence, and thus it is reasonable to grant grade school, job, etc., promotion conditional upon the idea that a person indicating Having-Religious-Beliefs would exclude them from positions requiring "intelligence".
Perhaps Mr. Maher should give more consideration of this topic.
Does My Belief of God Interfere With My Being A Scientist
Short answer: No. There is nothing that is inconsistent with my scientific work and my religious beliefs.
Do I believe everything in the Catholic Church and the Bible? There are some areas of my religious beliefs that are inconsistent with the "present" teachings of the Catholic Church. For example, my notion of abortion is closely aligned with the pre-1859 thinking in the Catholic Church that "ensoulment" occurs around the same time of fetus viability (around the beginning of the third trimester). It has only been since 1859 (Pope Pius) that we have our present framework that life starts at conception. Likewise, I don't find homosexual acts as sin. A key inconsistency in the thinking of the Church is whether or not we have sex for pleasure (and love) or sex for child-making. If the "rhythm method" is advocated by the Catholic Church as a way for married (heterosexual) couples to enjoy sex without creating more babies, I'd say that these couples clearly evidence "intent" of avoiding procreation, which is no different than contraception, masturbation, or homosexual acts. This is something where one has faith that, over time, the Catholic Church will embrace a broader understanding of humanity and family, and there is good evidence that the Church has been adapting. My prediction: The pope that addresses overpopulation and over consumption of the world's resources will also will a Nobel Prize. (Possibly not in my lifetime.)
Does Data Imply Truth?
There are many people in the hard sciences, like meteorology and biology, that generate lots of data. Of course, we care about Data Quality, such as whether our instruments are calibrated, and whether our observation techniques produce consistent data collection. In fact, many of them are working with "ontologies" regarding biology, chemistry, and physics (oversimplified: ontologies are mechanized knowledge than can be apply with computational techniques).
So when we measure 17 mm of rain in the past hour, and the air temperature is 17 C, we believe that we're trying to get a better understanding of "truth": Is 17 mm an accurate number? Was 17 C measured nakedly outdoors, in a black box with vents, in a white box with vents, or something else?
Let's say were measuring human body temperature and we get a reading of 100.0 F. Is that a fever? It depends upon how it is measured. The threshold for fevers is above 98.6 F when measured in the mouth, and 100.4 when measured in the ear. So if you used an ear thermometer, it is NOT a fever at 100.0 F. Important: it's not that the two thermometers have different calibrations, it's that the observation technique for determining Fever-Or-Not is different, dependent upon how it is observed (mouth, ear, armpit, rectum, etc.).
Ok, now what about my scientific beliefs. First of all, as data scientists, we believe in unreal things: a good example is currency (money) and economic indicators (accumulation of human's feelings about the future). Secondly, we can do statistically valid survey on things that are merely mental constructions, such as the Consumer Confidence Index, which asks people, essentially, how they're feeling about certain economic ideas. Likewise, it is possible to survey children in a scientific and statistically valid way: How Many Legs On A Unicorn? (Hint: The answers are very likely to cluster around the number 4.) And with that same thinking on Stuff That Can't Be Observed Under A Microscope, the valuation of currency, stocks, bonds, and other instruments are all, at their core, based upon mental constructions and not in the hard sciences (e.g., physics, chemistry, biology).
So being a data scientist means having a broader thinking about data and what it's measuring, rather than merely some "hard sciences fact", like How many milliliters of fluid in a beaker?, as we did in chemistry lab.
Belief Is Fundamental To Science and Rational Thought
My experience as a computer scientist (e.g., artificial intelligence, knowledge representation, computation, data semantics, etc.) informs me: humans are about beliefs, such as rational thought and trust. Ever ask a paranoid person why they don't trust you? After the person gives various reasons, either your try to rebut them or you find some of them impossible to rebut. And it's frustrating working with that paranoid person, because you KNOW that their paranoia is not justified. However, there is medicine for some paranoid people that makes the paranoia go away. Hmm, medicine applied to a person now causes their rational thinking to change - what is that about? While I am sure there are various chemical and biological explanations for what happens, essentially that paranoia is diminished, there is more trust, and rational decision-making is better and more acceptable for that person, his/her family and relationships, his/her community and job, and society as a whole.
Although Mr. Douhat explains that Universal Human Rights is about a belief, so is rational thinking, and (thus) science. If people understood how belief is more commonplace and fundamental, they maybe they would be less dismissive of beliefs. Have you ever tried changing someone's beliefs? It's hard to do with rational thought, and that's because beliefs are foundational rational thought.
Or said differently, if Mr. Maher understood this (as Mr. Douhat suggested), then Mr. Maher might take a different approach: trying to disprove someone's religious beliefs makes no sense, whether is a belief in God (the atheist to the mono-theist) or a disbelief in God (the mono-theist to the atheist). What is in order is: respect for another's beliefs, certainly of the religious variety for other citizens of the US (as per the First Amendment), and was world citizens (as per the UN's declaration of human rights).
So Believing In God Doesn't Affect My Scientific Work?
Certainly, it doesn't contradict any scientific knowledge or scientific methodology. Maybe one's religion might affect what is ethical behavior in the sciences (e.g., kinds of acceptable or unacceptable research), but not in scientific knowledge or methodology. I consider myself fortunate to believe in God, it has opened my mind towards thinking about things differently and more broadly because I'm less squeamish about data collection and data semantics, and I understand that beliefs are fundamental - "lower on the stack", as us IT people say.
Still one might say: But you believe in something (God) that you can't perceive, can't prove, and such - doesn't that taint your thinking? My response is simple yet deep: Have you given thought to how much of the sciences are infused with a human-oriented perspective, i.e., tainted by humans? The Linnaean Taxonomy of living things is a good example: the main taxonomic levels of genus and species were based upon morphological criteria at a human scale, such as the size, color, and behavior (as observed by humans) of plants and animals. A follow-up question might be: How much mathematics is observable in a rock? In other words, mathematics is a completely human-tainted construction. (Nothing wrong with that.)
Frank, Thanks for the very well reasoned post. I think I'm in agreement with all of it. I was raised as an Episcopalian. I even served as an alter boy through high school despite the fact that I was an avowed atheist from age 13. The ministers at our church said that alter boys were in short supply!
ReplyDeleteI've studied the bible more than most people. And I've studied other religions as well, including Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. Two of my closest friends in high school (and to this day) were a deeply religious Mormon and a Born Again Christian. We had many delightful debates on religion.
In some ways I envied those people who have a deep religious faith. I thought it provided them with meaning and a way to deal with life's tragedies. I even said at certain times, "I wish I COULD have religious faith." And I definitely hold in high esteem some of the religious principles of various religions, especially Buddhism and Taoism. But I also respect some of the principles and accomplishments of long dead religions, like the greek and roman gods. I view them all as sources of wisdom for forming my views on ethics and morality.
The fundamental obstacle for me is the inconsistency and incoherence of the religions I've studied. Perhaps the core incoherence in all the religions I've studied is that of theodicy: why a good god permits evil. If god is utterly and absolutely the cause of how the world is, then god is the cause of all the human suffering in the world. But a world of without suffering is possible, at least according to christianity--see Heaven. So why not cut to the chase? Why didn't god create us in Heaven in the first place?
I've only gotten two types of answers to this question: (1) he could not do so for some reason; and (2) he could have done it, but he CHOSE not do so for some reason which we mortals cannot fathom. (1) is simply inconsistent with the notion that god is omnipotent. (2) is an unsatisfying because it incoherently handwaves away the paradox.
(2) is also what makes religious belief fundamentally different from empiric belief (which underlies science): religious belief takes as a given that there are certain things that humanity will never understand on its own. Empiric belief takes as a given that we can understand everything about the world in due course. I'd rather have as my goal and the goal for humanity to understand more and more of the world; rather than a goal of more perfectly "obeying" a god.
Ultimately for me, belief in god makes no difference. I find it easier to accept the suffering of humanity by believing in a world without a god. The universe is indifferent to our suffering, that is why suffering is so prevalent. Only we humans can alleviate such suffering, by helping one another, and by changing our perspective on suffering (see Buddhism).
I try to act in ways that don't inflict pain or humiliation on my fellow beings and in ways that improves our condition as a community. In other words, I try to be a moral atheist. If I get punished for not believing the right things about the right god, then I say, "Bring it on!" I choose not to believe in a god that would bully people (through threats of eternal punishment!) based on mistaken beliefs.
I don't need a god to find meaning and solace in the world, but I understand and accept that many people do.
Nick, your writings over the years are important to me. I'll try an answering by sketching a joke (forgot the details to do it justice), which I heard in Mass' Homily a couple months ago:
ReplyDeleteA storm is coming, flood waters rising, town is being evacuated. A police officer stops by telling a man to evacuate, but he stands firm: God Will Save Me! Flood waters rise, a fireman on a boat stops by to rescue him, but the man stands firm: God Will Save Me! Flood waters now at the man's roof, a Coast Guard helicopter offers pull the man out, but he says: God Will Save Me! The man dies, goes to Heaven, and asks God: "I asked you to save me, but you didn't". God Replies: "I sent you a Car, a Boat, and a Helicopter - What more did you want?"
Not the original comic punch :-) but God is making himself available.
As a CERT (Community Emergency Response Team), we have regular responses to crises. People have told me: I am so blessed by God to have you help. Aside from putting pressure on (now doing God's work, I want to live up to His high standards!), I realize that in fact I'm helping someone else, and the Pleasure Is Truly Mine.
It sounds trite to say God Works In Mysterious Ways. A couple key ideas: (1) We want the best for our children, but we know much heartache suffered made us better adults; we understand as parents: it's not helpful to protect our children from all unpleasant moments. (2) Suffering/tragedy of one might help mitigate it for many in the future. Via dimensional analysis: one person in one year (or decade or lifetime) vs. millions of people over centuries/millennia - a scale that God might be thinking about.
Reframing this outside religion: A President 35 years ago might see variety of competitive, survival, existential issues: Soviet Union's ongoing military competition, Japan/South Korea compete on Big Steel. For our nation's sake, better competition on Steel is more important than preserving Big Steel (ditto for auto industry). Help every steelworker? Some had Car-Boat-Helicopter moments, heard advice/insight, got themselves retrained and into another industry. But many didn't listen, many weren't helped, and very disruptive: the Rust Belt. Same is true today for coal miners. The President can't do everything, but hopefully he can see long-term goals (citizenry might not see) and steer the nation in that direction. These changes are necessary for the long-term survival of our country - but disruptive. Sadly, politicians aren't honest/frank with their constituents about that kind of thinking.
One step further: food shortages, malnutrition, starving children? A priest's Homily years ago: On Planet Early, we have an overabundance of food, yet it is poorly distributed. Poor distribution? That's a human problem (a key insight!) and can be applied to current discussions on taxation/healthcare. God does not expect us to sit back and be served, God expects us to help ourselves, God expects us to help others.
Think of people in college and dismissive thoughts: So-and-So is a Bleeding Heart, sympathy for everyone, fighting for every cause! That's our Car-Boat-Helicopter moment: we need to be better listeners, it's not too late. We could apply our broad set of talents, where to pitch in, and contribute ourselves.
Sadly, the insight is only visible later on in life: it's time to pitch in and diminish those kinds of problems. It's the responsibility to those with power: we shouldn't look at food shortages and think Oh Poor Them! We should think as rich, powerful, abundant resources: let's do something about it ... starving children is OUR problem, not the children's problem to solve.
Now with healthcare: trillion dollars tax cuts for the rich in exchange for a trillion dollars of Medicaid cuts, large-scale human suffering, misery, illness, death.
In summary, we shouldn't expect God to solve every problem, we should expect ourselves to pitch in - a longer term picture my not be directly viewable by humans.
Frank, Again, thank you for taking the time to so thoughtfully respond. Your argument is one I have heard many times before, but it simply doesn't hold water given the promise of heaven as I understand the theology of heaven.
ReplyDeleteOnce we're in heaven, we do not suffer from evil. Correct? And a baptized infant who dies instantly from, say, a bullet wound, goes to heaven, right?
So clearly it is possible for a human (in this case the infant) to go directly to heaven with (virtually) no suffering. So the analogy to parents not shielding children from the suffering required to mature is completely invalid.
I go back to the core question: Why did god "drive us from Eden"? In other words,god originally placed humankind in a paradise with no suffering. God will return us to a paradise with no suffering (heaven). So there's no question god COULD simply allow us all to live in heaven NOW, THIS INSTANT. I have heard NO coherent explanation of why god instead CHOSES to make us live in a world where god causes unspeakable suffering. For it is ultimately god who is causing the suffering, even though it may be inflicted by god's instruments (people or nature).
Your analogy to the President also is completely misplaced. The key difference is "the president can't do everything." But god can. So the analogy fails.
And by suffering, we're not just talking about enobling hardships. We're talking about the rape, mutilation, and torture of innocent children. The argument that such atrocities in the short run may be necessary for the long run (aka the big picture argument), is abhorrent to me. I would never worship a god that abuses children like that for the greater good. I would despise such a god.
It's odd (ie incoherent) that you end with "we shouldn't expect god to solve every problem", because that is EXACTLY what we expect god to do once humanity enters into heaven after the second coming. We expect that god will provide a world where whatever problems there are do not lead to unspeakable suffering. Since we expect it someday, I don't see the logic in NOT expecting it TODAY. No christian has ever coherently justified to me why a just and loving god needs to inflict these millennia of suffering on humanity in between the era of paradise and the era of the kingdom of heaven after the second coming.
What the bible says literally is that these millennia are PUNISHMENT for our original sin. Well, I find it incoherent to believe that a just and loving god would be that unjust, unloving, and downright cruel. NOTHING in the past could EVER possibly justify the rape, mutilation, and torture of millions upon millions of innocent children over the millennia.
The only way I can possibly comprehend such mindless horror is to believe there is no god (at least not a just and loving one); there is only implacable, indifferent nature.
Nick, I hope we're not talking past each other, so I'll do my best.
ReplyDeleteDoes the Bible say these millennia are for punishment? Where is that said? Maybe you've blurred it a little: We're born into sin, but I wouldn't equate that with punishment. The sin is Free Will.
As for the promise of Heaven, assuming that I end up there (ya know, I once was an atheist), my sense of Heaven is that my soul will be there, and I can't really comprehend what it will be like, because I won't be doing regular human stuff, like eating, sleeping, taking a whiz, showering, etc.. I'm guessing there will be some experience that will make sense to me then (I'm not sure if that makes any sense). I'm looking to live as much of my life as I can so I can do as much as I can while I'm living on Earth.
I believe God expects me to do what I can to help, not merely sit back, as in the Car-Boat-Helicopter flood victim.
I agree that there are many terrible atrocities, and I'd prefer not to enumerate them, e.g., details of the Holocaust in WWII. Perhaps I said it ineptly, my point was: it might not be possible to understand God's perspective, I wasn't trying to rationalize it with ennobling hardships, that was merely an poor analogy.
Regarding your core question: Why did God drive us from Eden? I don't think that question is answered directly head on, I believe that's an explanation ("explanation" might not be an accurate word) on why humans are different than other living things. Free Will is probably the most important distinction. Or said differently, Free Will is axiomatic to the nature of humans. In other words, Genesis isn't about a factual narrative about an event's details, Genesis is about defining some core concepts, explaining why humans are different, explaining our relationship to other living and non-living things on Earth.
I guess if you expect God to solve all problems, then there isn't Free Will, right? And if God intervenes into every action, there is no Free Will, right? As I said, why God doesn't intervene? I don't think this is something I can understand.
Buddhism has 14 Unanswered Questions that one should not spend time trying to answer because it's a time-waster (unwise reflection). I think some things in Christianity are like that. And some things in the sciences are like that: What happened a millisecond before the Big Bang? -- that's a topic of "unwise reflection".
Here are Buddha's 14 unanswered questions:
Fourteen Questions
According to their subject matter the questions can be grouped in four categories.
Questions concerning the existence of the world in time
1. Is the world eternal?
2. ...or not?
3. ...or both?
4. ...or neither?
Questions concerning the existence of the world in space
5. Is the world finite?
6. ...or not?
7. ...or both?
8. ...or neither?
Questions referring to personal identity
9. Is the self identical with the body?
10. ...or is it different from the body?
Questions referring to life after death
11. Does the Tathagata (Buddha) exist after death?
12. ...or not?
13. ...or both?
14. ...or neither?
Frank,
ReplyDeleteFree will cannot possibly be sin, since Adam and Eve had free will in paradise prior to the fall. God bestowed free will on humans, so how could it be a sin?
See the Catholic Catechism #397 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm#397). And see #1704.
The language of Genesis seems pretty clear on why we were banished from paradise, it says god "cursed" adam and eve. If cursing someone isn't a punishment, I don't know what is. :)
"I guess if you expect God to solve all problems, then there isn't Free Will, right?" I didn't say god has to solve ALL problems. God only has to solve problems that lead to suffering. God can leave us problems like deciding what to have for dinner in heaven. :)
I'm not completely joking though. Part of what I find incoherent about the catechism is that it paints a picture of Adam and Eve in Paradise where they have free will AND they have NO SUFFERING: '376 By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man's life were confirmed. As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die.252 The inner harmony of the human person, the harmony between man and woman,253 and finally the harmony between the first couple and all creation, comprised the state called "original justice".' I assume that this wonderful state of human nature will be restored after the second coming. Correct? So christians envision an afterlife of free will, yet with no suffering. Correct?
So god taking away suffering doesn't mean that god takes away free will. QED. That begs the question yet again, "why doesn't god eliminate suffering NOW? Why do we have to wait for millennia for the second coming? I never get a coherent answer from my christian friends. All I get is "the mystery of god" or "some questions cannot be answered".
Finally, your comparison to asking what came before the big bang is a poor one. Physicists and cosmologists are exploring this question quite fruitfully as we speak. I just finished reading "From Eternity to Here" (https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/eternitytohere/), which rehearses some very cogent arguments about what might have preceded the big bang, and how we might be able to PROVE such theories from the traces of the big bang.
That's what I mean by the fundamental incoherence of religious belief vs scientific belief. In science, all mysteries are continually worked on in a systemic fashion. Incoherence is not tolerated at all, and inconsistency is tolerated provisionally.
In religion, believers (at least the ones I talk to) ultimately tell me, when I point out what I find incoherent, that it's a mystery that can't be answered. There is no attempt to find a solution to it or to test it in some way.
I have nothing against religion. I just have no need for it's incoherent set of beliefs. In my world view, humankind works incrementally to improve itself and its knowledge day by day. We help one another. Whatever goodness there is comes from us. The same goes for the badness. Why isn't that enough? I'm a big believer in Occam's Razor: don't create a theory more complex than necessary. To me, religious texts are like childhood stories and ancient fables. They are wonderful literature, and they teach many important lessons. But you don't have to believe they are true to gain benefit from them.
BTW, For a good list of unsolved problems in physics (as well as some that were recently solved) see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_physics .
I just have a brief comment on religion in general: It's an extremely effective tool for ensuring community cohesiveness, effective in ancient days for keeping the group/community/city-state/nation together when fighting a war. In the Homeric poems, deities take sides in the Trojan war, and although I'm not an expert, the same stories about God ("God on our side") or gods must have been told with appropriate variations before and after the Trojan War.
ReplyDeleteReligion - or belief in an "all-powerful" being that might "help or protect" your side, is in this instance, exactly like giving French soldiers some rum before they climb up over the trench to charge the Germans. It may give them a momentary sense of euphoria or courage - just enough to think they're invincible, if they have the help of an invincible, undying deity. I think religion served this state- or city-state validating purpose always, especially as a wall of cementing patriarchy (although there were also matriarchal societies ). The order on Earth mirrors the order on high, with "Father" God as the supreme being (Zeus/God) mirroring the order on Earth. These are stories told to enforce social compliance, that everyone stays in line, and goes along with accepted social strictures. This was the case always, including with the "primitive" belief systems.
Here's Part II of the same comment:
ReplyDeleteI do think Christianity brought a new, Eastern-inflected dimension to the West, because of the tragic, anti-heroic central figure - who even was said to be the "Son" of "God." Obviously, the "murdered" Jesus, an original social justice warrior if there ever was one, could be readily identified with by the beleaguered masses in the Roman Empire, so the religion caught fire with the slaves/enslaved subject peoples and so forth, and eventually spread to the more well off, and became fashionable by the time Constantine's mother had adopted it. Jesus obviously uttered Zen-like sayings - which also proved popular, almost as through-provoking, disruptive slogans.
However, Christianity too was used as just another ideology, just another religion, to keep the people of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires in line, exactly as paganism had been used before by Roman emperors the official adoption (or initially toleration) of Christianity had been. I have nothing but scorn for organized religion - although I do think much of what Jesus taught, which was studiously ignored by most since then, has much value.
The lesson of the barefoot, penniless, homeless, philosopher Jesus, who didn't even have a family or wife, yet preached things that he must have known would have antagonized the Romans. It reminds me of many other philosophers whose words fell on deaf ears, some of whom also paid the ultimate price. People should aspire to those ideals - but they never do.
And I doubt if the men (and it's probably usually men) who make up religions (and they were probably all made up by men once upon a time) both pagan & monotheistic, think the tenets through too clearly, such as why can't the all-powerful gods or god do something to help poor struggling humanity and so forth? What's the point of prayer if the deities can't do something? It's enough to attach a deity to a season, or a meteorological phenomenon, or a star, a mountain, a rock, or a river, and say that's the deity, thunder is deity, and so forth. Or, a coyote created Earth. Why? The explanations usually do not go too far back, to explain why God created Earth and so forth. It's best not to ask why, because only god knows why.
I also want to point out the serious trouble the Catholic Church is in currently, with hundreds of thousands of dollars being given out to victims of child abuse. various high level scandals involving Vatican personnel/advisers and so forth. The church doesn't seem to practice what it preaches and that might explain falling church attendance. Yes, Pope Francis is gold - progressive and kind. But he's one official out of thousands, some of whom abused children, with many others, unfortunately, protecting the abusers. Doesn't the pattern of child sex abuse by church figures, and the evidence of large-scale cover up, make the entire Catholic Church suspect?
Part III
ReplyDeleteAnyway, my take on religion is that all religions are simply a way to enforce social control, usually to enforce patriarchy. Even if a religion or a religious figure has something valid to say, like Jesus, the religion ultimately is always used in a State-validating way - to underline social control by either a church or a state. A religion that says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" then can be used to "justify" mass killing in time of war - exactly the way paganism was used to "reassure" fighters in ancient times, that "Athena" or "Zeus" was watching over them, would protect them, was on their side, because you know, the Greek pagan gods are "superior" to those of the Etruscans [here you can insert the name of any other ancient peoples the Greeks fought such as the Persians - when they weren't fighting each other]. You would sacrifice to the gods and expect something in return - an improvement in health, a child, some business success, or to win in war. That's how it worked then, and that's how it works now: People are brainwashed to think that "God is on their side" as they march off to war. And those in so-called "godless" societies with officially mandated atheism, have merely substituted another religion for Christianity, that of messianic communism (with a few "near god-like figures" like Marx or Mao thrown in). Did you ever notice how communism also promises the "promised land" just around the corner, exactly like Christianity? Did we ever have a State that explicitly followed the tenets of Christianity to the letter? No. Instead, States use Christianity as a "veneer" of "morality" while they continue to allow all sorts of excesses and so forth. The "veneer" of "morality" - isn't that what States always aspire to, with any religion - the "stamp" of "religious approval" as they turn to the usual business of social stratification, self-aggrandizement of the nobility/ruling house, accumulation, state-sanctioned piracy, expansionism, enslavement, and so forth?
Part IV
ReplyDeleteYes, it is nice to read about religion, and certainly so much of Western civilization centered on honoring religious figures (pagan and post-pagan). Where would we be today without the Parthenon, built to honor the goddess Athena, or without the religious music composed in the Baroque period, or the Gothic cathedrals. If you deleted religious art in the Met, what would you have? Not much of a Met. Of course the Bible provides wonderful themes for art, and so forth. Christian martyr stories are inspirational and Christianity did bring down paganism. Yet Christianity in turn eventually became just as intolerant and closed-minded. Galileo had a hard time when he challenged the geocentric universe concept, looked over by God because by then the Christian "project" had become a sclerotic establishment which wouldn't tolerate questions.
I think it was only a few hundred years later that the Catholic Church officially agreed with Galileo (mid 19th C if I am not mistaken).
There is a place for what religion says - basic morality, and doing the right thing. But it's never been adopted as written or, rather, as intended, in the Bible. It's simply been used by one regime or one empire, after another, to justify all sorts of immoral, unjustifiable actions such as various expansionist wars, slavery, officially sanctioned greed/exploitation, patriarchal de facto gender based "enslavement," intolerance, officially enforced ignorance, excessive accumulation, and so forth.
The contradictions between society and religion are too extreme, which is probably another reason people have largely stopped going to church. Didn't church attendance really start collapsing during the "Me" decade - the 80s? Isn't greed exactly incompatible with Christian teachings? Isn't greed incompatible with helping others? The "gospel" of making money, because it's "natural" to be greedy - how can that "gospel" compete with what Jesus taught? Isn't Jesus' teaching maybe "inimical" even to the foundation of society, that "greed" drives everything, and that it's perfectly OK that "greed" (self-interest) drive everything. What Jesus had in mind - a Kingdom of God where brother would help brother, where there would be no war, and no poverty either - this has never come to pass, ever, not in any supposedly "Christian" country. Instead, religion is used, just as paganism was used, to enforce social compliance, justify war, and make people accept their impoverished situation. Every social ill, everything Jesus said would disappear, is instead officially "justified" under Christianity. We're told to pray for a better tomorrow, or for something better. And if our prayers aren't answered, then we're told to pray harder. But the prayer never do work, and they never will, because unfortunately, state structures will never allow them to work. There never will be a promised land, or a paradise on earth, because the state will never allow it - any state, of any religious persuasion, pagan or non-pagan.
Thanks Frank for a worthy read.
ReplyDeleteThanks Nick... text like from my keyboard.
Nick, simple explanation: you read the Bible like a scientist, looking for coherence (or lack of it). I read the Bible looking for insight and guidance. You've heard my Finding Nemo analogy: at the end of the movie we believe Nemo has died, a dramatic pause, he coughs and comes to life. NO ONE in the movie shouts "Fish Don't Cough! Sand doesn't move that way on the ocean floor!" - of course not, because it's the message at that moment that comes through (Nemo's father's realization that one's own children can surprise you in what they become/accomplish).
ReplyDeleteFor Adam and Eve, if you read Genesis (look at original text), there's no evidence of Free Will prior to the serpent's "trick" getting Eve to eat fruit from the tree of knowledge. Eve didn't think she had Free Will then because she was tricked: she was merely following instructions, possibly believed, from God's agent the serpent. Once they exhibited Free Will, things were different.
You've cited the Catechism extensively, glad you found it helpful. You cite paragraph 376 and focus upon the lack of suffering in the garden and tie that to present suffering. I see the explanation (along with the original text) of the transition from Man As Animal, to Man As Sentient creature, to Man Has Free Will. The narrative along with original text, possibly inaccurate from an evolutionary perspective, sketches the transformation of man into his role in the world now (past 6 millennia).
My reference to a millisecond prior to the Big Bang was a flippant (comical?) statement, not a statement of present research. I'm sure you've read some piece of literature that had some inconsistencies. Some of them we ignore, some of them we puzzle over. You say:
Nick: "I have nothing against religion. I just have no need for its incoherent set of beliefs. In my world view, humankind works incrementally to improve itself and its knowledge day by day. We help one another. Whatever goodness there is comes from us. The same goes for the badness. Why isn't that enough? I'm a big believer in Occam's Razor: don't create a theory more complex than necessary. [...]"
Occam's Razor is nice for scientific theories, it's not so good at explaining the complex human condition. Humans you know don't behave according to Occam's razor, they're more complex (think Freud), and we accept it.
There is a subtle but important distinction between Belief and Truth in that Belief is "lower on the stack", and it seems you've conflated the two. Here's an excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Suspension of Disbelief:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief
According to the theory, suspension of disbelief is an essential ingredient for any kind of storytelling. With any film, the viewer has to ignore the reality that they are viewing a two-dimensional moving image on a screen and temporarily accept it as reality in order to be entertained. Black-and-white films provide an obvious early example that audiences are willing to suspend disbelief, no matter how unreal the images appear, for the sake of entertainment. With the exception of totally color blind people, no person viewing these films sees the real world without color, but they are still willing to suspend disbelief and accept the images in order to be entertained. Suspension of disbelief is also supposed to be essential for the enjoyment of many movies and TV shows involving complex stunts, special effects, and seemingly unrealistic plots, characterizations, etc.
In summary, I suggest that you NOT read the Bible as scientific truth, but a narrative and beliefs, some of which cause our puzzlers to work overtime. I'm fine with my puzzler working hard, Occam is not. :-)
Frank,
ReplyDeleteYour lopsided characterization of the way I read the bible is unfair as it clearly ignores what I explicitly stated in my comments:
* "And I definitely hold in high esteem some of the religious principles of various religions, especially Buddhism and Taoism. But I also respect some of the principles and accomplishments of long dead religions, like the greek and roman gods. I view them all as sources of wisdom for forming my views on ethics and morality."
* "To me, religious texts are like childhood stories and ancient fables. They are wonderful literature, and they teach many important lessons. But you don't have to believe they are true to gain benefit from them."
I don't JUST read religious texts "like a scientist, looking for coherence". I read them in TWO ways: (1) to better understand the human condition and good principles to live life by; and (2) as a scientist, analyzing the concepts for their consistency and pragmatic accuracy.
Your analogy to Finding Nemo makes MY point, not yours. I watch movies like Finding Nemo just like I read religious texts: for the insights into the human condition and for the valuable lessons such works conveys. I can fully appreciate ALL OF THAT without having to believe in talking fish or a holy ghost or the sun as a chariot. Finding Nemo is a fictional story that nonetheless conveys some wisdom. Likewise, religious texts are fictional stories that nonetheless convey deep wisdom.
Your quote on Suspension of Disbelief also makes MY point. SoD is essential to the "enjoyment" of a story. Enjoyment. Entertainment. To say that one should suspend disbelief to the extent of LIVING ONE'S LIFE as if a movie were literally true is pathological. Look at Scientology for goodness sake--a religion made up by a science fiction writer, and a poor one at that!
That's what I don't understand about intelligent, open minded, and reflective religious people like you and my high school friends I mentioned above. You look at other religions and you admire their great principles, but you don't for a second believe they're true. But when it comes to your own religion, well, of course it's true!
Since they can't all be true, the logical conclusion is that none of them are true. They are usefull, they provide insight into the human condition, they provide some good moral and ethical principles, but that are not therefore true.
Frank,
ReplyDeleteOn the issue of the Roman Catholic position on free will, you are flat out wrong.
Whether in the bible there is 'evidence of Free Will prior to the serpent's "trick" getting Eve to eat fruit from the tree of knowledge', the stated position of the Catholic church is that god conferred free will to Adam at the moment of his creation:
'1730. God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27'
Adam and Eve disobeyed god of their own free will; free will which they had from the moment of their creation. If you don't believe me, you may want to discuss this with your priest.
Nick, I'm not sure if there is any point in arguing this: as humans, Adam and Eve were different than all other humans (except for Christ). Adam and Eve were born without original sin.
ReplyDeleteYou keep trying to find a gotcha moment, and it's not really helpful when inconsistencies don't invalidate beliefs, unlike scientific theories where they invalidate theories.
You say "Since they can't all be true, the logical conclusion is that none of them are true". Aside from your statement having faulty logic, I think you're overstepping, and you know this too:
"("2+2=3" AND "2+2=4" AND "2+2=5") are all not true" // Yes, a True statement
but it does not imply "none are true", which is disproven by contradiction:
"("2+2=3" AND "2+2=4" AND "2+2=5"), not are true" // A False Statement
And, thus, your statement is illogical.
I've pointed out that Belief is more fundamental than Truth (lower on the stack). You say:
Nick: "That's what I don't understand about intelligent, open minded, and reflective religious people like you and my high school friends I mentioned above. You look at other religions and you admire their great principles, but you don't for a second believe they're true. But when it comes to your own religion, well, of course it's true!"
Again, you're confusing Belief with Truth. I can Believe In God, I can discover Truths, and Inconsistencies Don't Necessarily Invalidate Truths.
Or to put in terminology theory, the "truth" in religion is a different concept than the "truth" in scientific discovery -- they have the same signifier (T-R-U-T-H), but are different concepts. As a side note, there are relationships between these two concepts and related concepts and concept systems.
As easy way to point out the differences in the two concepts is (1) one is based upon reasoning and logic; and (2) the other is based upon belief, which is not necessarily within a rational framework.
A "truth" in the former concept might be e=mc^2.
A "truth" in the latter concept might be:
Thomas Jefferson: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
Maybe now you can go back to your friends in high school and say: Ah, I get it: there are two different concepts that use the same word "truth", but they don't mean the same things, and people sometimes use them interchangeably. :-)
Frank,
ReplyDeleteI agree that belief is more fundamental than truth. In fact, I don’t believe that truth can be separated from belief. “Truth is simply a compliment paid to sentences seen to be paying their way.” — Richard Rorty
Perhaps I can wrap up my part of this engaging dialog by simply restating my original point: “The fundamental obstacle for me is the inconsistency and incoherence of the religions I've studied.” I seem to be simply incapable of believing in a system of thought (pick the religion) that is so thoroughgoingly incoherent and inconsistent.
To use your suspension of disbelief analogy, some works (movies, books, plays, etc) are so well designed that it is easy to suspend one’s disbelief. Others are SO full of inconsistencies, plot holes, unexplained coincidences, etc. that they fail in the box office because no one believes the story. The only religious system of thought that comes close to being coherent enough for me to even consider suspending my disbelief in Buddhism.
I hope we can both agree that religious systems of belief are riddled with inconsistencies—far more than scientific theories. So the only thing we disagree on is how inconsistent a system of belief has to be before we reject it.
Nick, maybe we can agree, and I'll use some of your World-Class Expertise in things Object-Oriented (overlaps nicely with terminology science). Essentially, there are several kinds of concepts:
ReplyDelete- Truth1, in accord with fact/reality
- Truth2, adherence or fidelity to a norm
- Truth3, authenticity
Scientific truth is Truth1. Jefferson's self evident truths are Truth2. Religious truths are a mix of Truth2 and Truth3.
While it is easy to conceive of a base class from which the concept Truth1, Truth2, and Truth3 are derived (specialized) from, the notion of Belief is not that base class, but related those 4 concepts (the 3 truths and the base concept).
I can appreciate your thinking "The fundamental obstacle for me is the inconsistency and incoherence of the religions I've studied", however I am compelled to go further. I do much training as an emergency responder, and one of the training areas is on mental health ... we will need to give psychological "first aid" to those in need. While I've taken many classes/courses, a recent training (MHFA - Mental Health First Aid), which was broken into adult and youth/children components, has its acronym ALGEE for quickly remembering the 5-step process:
A ssess for risk of suicide or harm
L isten nonjudgmentally
G ive reassurance and information
E ncourage appropriate professional help
E ncourage self-help and other support strategies
In learning how to Listen Non-Judgmentally (Step #2), I think we (as listeners) have to have a framework in which we can accept inconsistency and figure out how to make progress. I experienced this last week in a deployment to an emergency center that was receiving people from a fire in a large apartment building in NYC (they no longer had homes). There was a person who was really agitated (understandably so) and he/she would tell me things that, on face, had lots of inconsistencies, but I had to try to see beyond that. Confronting the person with their inconsistencies works against Step #2 above. Later on, I was able to gain the trust of this person, so I could do more to help him/her. I believe my persistence in trying to help this person, rather than reacting to his/her inconsistencies, is what helped build trust. I remember thinking at the time: try to maintain the discipline of supporting and helping serve the person, ignore the inconsistencies -- it helped me get through the 5 steps (ALGEE) of the Mental Health First Aid.
I'm OK with inconsistencies. And it helps me understand things in my technical work, too ... much more so than merely demanding that everything must be consistent. I like consistency, elegance, and coherence, too. :-)
Hi Frank - love your post... Being an atheist myself - I have no problems with people believing in any system. The problem caused by religions in general is the implied understanding among people belonging to a believe system is that their system is better - or more valuable - than other believe systems. If we could divide into two groups - those who believe, and those who do not, everything would be better.
ReplyDeleteI once read an article about one of the challenges immigrants to Norway have is to adapt to a society where most do not believe. Immigrants with a different believe system are more inclined to adapt to a system where someone believes, rather than a society where few does. And to me that made sense, I would imagine that it is easier to understand and relate to someone who believes, than to someone who does not, even you believe in different things - I think the important aspect is that you believe.
The other day I was listening to a radio show, and the show was about how old is the idea of God, and for how long have humans had the concept of a "God"? And in the show, they agreed that we have had an idea of God as long as we have had language, or as long as we have been able to formulate a question. E.g. why is it raining? where does the wind come from? why do crop grow? etc. And it is because of the rain-god, the wind-god, the crop-god. As long as there are things we do not understand, there will always be a demand for explanations to what we do not understand. And as our societies becomes more complex, and global - there will be an increased need for explanations.
I think the future of believe-systems are prosperous, it makes the world simpler and more manageable. People likes the idea that they understand, and being part of a belief-system helps them understand, and the books documenting the believe-system are meaningful tools for providing guidance on how to manoeuvre the increased complexity of what we do not understand.
One last point - we cannot blame religion or different believe-systems for acts commenced by individuals (or groups of individuals). Individuals doing harm founded in base of a religion are just criminals, and should be treated as criminals and talked about as criminals - nothing more, nothing less. Different believe-systems do no harm - people to that.
When I was an atheist, I had similar thinking for about two decades: God was just a placeholder for things we don't really understand, at one point thunder and lightning were from God, but now we have meteorology ... and God (as a placeholder for the unknown) was useful for many people, but now with a lot of scientific knowledge, there is less that we truly don't know from a scientific perspective.
DeleteSo, yes, I can understand that perspective because it was my prior thinking. The problem is: science doesn't really exclude religion and vice versa. I wouldn't say I "chose" to believe in God, I'd say I now believe in God ... but choosing? I don't think belief comes from choosing ... probably something else. :-)
Religion can also be a crutch, especially to the down and out, those with few prospects in life, the very poor, and the poorly educated. It may give them some hope. Check out the following article http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/04/12/global-survey-finds-63-of-worlds-population-is-religious-while-11-are-convinced-atheists/
DeleteIn general, the more developed/wealthier countries are the less religious ones, while the less developed/poorer countries are the more religious ones. Perhaps the same is true in the US, even, with the Bible Belt States being roughly the poorer States, and the richer States (coastal) perhaps not being as religious.
The inverse correlation between religiosity and wealth/development, reminds me of the correlation between development/education and family size. The more educated a woman becomes, the less likely she is to have a large family. Women in developed countries usually have fewer children than those in less developed countries.
I think there is a relationship between education and religion, and I think religion, in order to maintain its grip on society, deliberately puts the shutters on education whenever it can, so it can have the "monopoly" on peoples' outlook/explanation for things. In general, once people find out that there is another explanation for phenomena, they may view the religious explanation skeptically, or simply consider it a metaphor. Personally, my parents sent me to Sunday School but I dropped out after one session because I thought there was too much prayer. Since neither parent was particularly religious, thankfully, they never forced me to go back. It was always carefully explained to me that there is no afterlife, no Heaven, no Hell, no soul, and not to fear death. Thus, I had no interest in Sunday School even at the age of around 6.
As I said in another comment, many religious figures have said great things, that were supposed to have helped or humanized people, conveyed an ethical framework. But each time, the teachings were co-opted by political figures and used for their own ends, as an adjunct to dominate the population with the additional "cudgel" of religion keeping everyone in line, accepting the status quo, such as a hereditary nobility/kingship and so forth. Paganism served to validate ancient kings and emperors, right? The same system was applied to monotheistic belief systems when they replaced polytheism in the West.
Nothing good comes of tyrannical regimes who cloak themselves in religious authority, in addition to political coercion (holding the monopoly of legal coercive power and religious authority). Examples of what happens in that case - the exact opposite of the Kingdom of Heaven - abound. Theocratic regimes are never "heavenly."
Good points Helen. As I've said, it's easier to be an atheist/agnostic when you're young, invincible, in good health, with food, shelter, and security/safety -- e.g., most of Maslow's hierarchy of needs in the Green with only self-actualization to tackle.
DeleteAs you point out, political structures prey upon citizens who are further in need in Maslow's hierarchy.
My question for Nick is: if people suffer more, then why are they more likely to become believers of a faith, rather than become atheists (for all of the reasons Nick states)? I think that needs more thought.
Anyway, thank you to several of you who have inspired an enlightening discussion!
Frank,
ReplyDeleteI’ve spent the past couple of hours thinking about how best to respond to your latest comment. I think I have to go all the way back to this statement in your original post:
‘However, we can see this distinction clearer in mathematical terms, when N is the number of gods:
atheists: believe N must be 0
monotheists (Judaism, Christianity, Islam): believe N must be 1
other theists: believe N >= 1
agnostic: not sure what number N is’
You have not described MY form of atheism. My atheism is NOT the belief that there are 0 gods. My atheism is that the concept of god is so incoherent that it is meaningless to try to say whether there is zero, one, or many.
To continue your math/logic analogy, in order be able to assign a truth value to mathematical assertion/description, the assertion/description must be well formed. For example
The assertion “1+1=2” is true.
The assertion “2+2=5” is false.
The assertion “<=>5,2+-*/(<<<<<)17,25====” cannot be assigned a truth value because it is not well formed. It does not make sense. It is incoherent. It is neither true nor false.
I can’t count the number of “god” entities if I can’t even understand the description of “god” offered by the abrahamic religions. Asking how many gods there are is like asking how many “square circles” there are. I can’t give you an answer until I understand what you mean by the term “square circle”. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
Unfortunately, whenever I discuss with one of my friends what the term “god” means to them, their description eventually turns out to be so inconsistent, so contradictory, or so vague, I isn’t possible to say whether such a description describes something that actually exists because I don’t even understand the “something” they are describing. What usually happens is that they switch back and forth between assertions that are literal (god created the universe) and metaphorical (man is created in god’s image, god is jealous).
So I am NOT an atheist because I am certain god does not exist. I am an atheist because I have no idea what god even means. The concept of god is incoherent.
But to the extent that some aspects of (christian) god are comprehensible, I would simply reject such a god if such a god did exist. For example, the catholic catechism attributes the following to god: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell.’” So if I die an atheist, this god condemns me to hell for eternity. I NEVER get another chance to accept god. EVER. I find that either (a) inconsistent with a loving god; or (b) evil. I would never worship a god that would condemn a person for eternity. I would reject and repudiate belief in such a god. So I guess I am anti-god or I rebel against any god who would condemn anyone “for eternity.” So I guess I should call myself an A-theist/Anti-theist.
In conclusion, I find all descriptions of god to be too ambiguous and incoherent to even consider the “existence of god”. And I find some descriptions of god, e.g. the description of god in the catholic catechism, that describe a god that I find abhorrent and that I utterly reject. (Note that some christian sects believe that god will eventually forgive everyone and everyone will be joined with god, even satan. See http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.com/2011/08/origen-on-salvation-of-devil.html I still find such a god incoherent for other reasons, but I don’t find such a god abhorrent.)
Thanks for provoking such deep reflection on my part. It’s been a while. It caused me to discover Gregory of Nyssa, an early theologian who believed in universal salvation, which the Roman Catholic church has rejected.
A careful reading of my comment on "N=0" and such was in reference to the militant atheists ("New Atheism") that rejected others' belief in God. You're not in that category, so the N=0, N=1, etc. discussion doesn't apply to you.
ReplyDeleteNick, who knows maybe your actually agnostic rather than atheist. As you say, your notion of God is nebulous, so it seems impossible to assert that you don't believe in X, when you can't even describe X.
I'm not going to argue about the Mechanics of Hell because we don't really know. But we can pray for people to go to Heaven, again one can't be precise about the Mechanics. But I think you're agnostic because atheists aren't worried about Hell. :-)
DID YOU KNOW THE SHAGGY DOG JOKE ORIGINATED IN THE BIBLE?
Yes, a Shaggy Dog joke is one that goes on and on. Here is an excerpt of Abraham arguing with God, his rhetoric is just as firm and interesting as yours Nick.
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Genesis 18:16-33
ABRAHAM PLEADS FOR SODOM
When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”
“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”
Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”
He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”
[Nick, you see where this is going, but the Bible didn't have the Comedy Rule (first, second, and third time Funny, fourth time Not So Funny Anymore), so this continues downward all the way to the number 10.]
Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”
He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
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Nick, please continue to argue with God to reduce suffering, maybe you'll break through, just like Abraham!
Frank,
ReplyDeleteA couple of observations.
"I'm not going to argue about the Mechanics of Hell because we don't really know."
Strange, I thought you identified as a Roman Catholic. The Roman Catholic church certainly has taken a position of the mechanics of hell. In your blog post, you cite parts of the Catholic Catechism to show how much thought is given to important ethical topics. I can't think of anything more important than the ethics of damnation, yet you don't want to debate it.
"As you say, your notion of God is nebulous, so it seems impossible to assert that you don't believe in X, when you can't even describe X."
I see what you tried to do there! ;) It is not MY notion of god that is nebulous, it is yours. Since you are the one professing belief in god, the burden of clearly describing the god you believe in is on you, not me.
BTW, My notion of god is clear and simple: God is not an entity. God is not the creator. God is not omnipotent. God is not omnisicent. "God" is simply the reification of the grace that occurs when we love one another.
In fact, I believe that Jesus was an atheist who tried to do away with religion and replace it with this simple, clear message of love. But his message was distorted by his own apostles and the early church.
Jesus said there was only one "New Commandment": "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." John 13:33–35 No other beliefs need be professed: "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Galatians 5:14 Thus, even the commandment to "love god" (which Jesus advocated earlier, see Matthew 22:35-40) is no longer required.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Commandment
Jesus's New Commandment says nothing about believing in god because there is no god, or at least there is no need to believe in god. We can fulfill the new commandment simply by loving one another. We don't need a a belief in god to create a community of neighbours loving neighbours; we only need love.
I guess you can call me an atheistic follower of Jesus the atheist!
PS And this New Commandment is the one thing that is consistent across all the world's religions! So if we would just drop all the rest of religious doctrine and leave it behind as we left behind animal sacrifice, etc. then we could eliminate all religious strife. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
Nick, I feel like I'm having an argument with someone who knows religion from his reading on internet. But, I guess that's the point of the discussion, right?
ReplyDeleteSo today I was praying for you, and I wrote this on my prayer card for the 8:15 Mass this morning:
"For my friend Nick: God please guide him in his questions"
After the Mass, I spoke to the priest to seek some insight and I happened to mention having a discussion with you regarding some inconsistencies within the Bible, such as the mechanics of Heaven/Hell, which we can't really know, right?" and the priest nodded Yes.
No I'm not expecting that you've experienced this (religion), but at least Give It A Break: I'm not sure of your point ... are you trying to make me not believe? are you trying to convince me of something?
When I mentioned several kinds of "truth", as your are an intellectual (and I presume you have some terminology chops), I thought that explanation might help understand why we see "truth" differently.
When I pointed out that you seemed to have some blur on you definition of God and it seemed difficult to understand how you could be certain that God *didn't* exist when you couldn't define it (your discussion, in essence, of "N might be 0, 1, or something else"), you now say it was my burden to define God ... well, I think you're well aware of my definition of God, because you seek to tell me it's not X, Y, and Z.
But that's OK, we think about God differently. Again, my sense of an atheist (the "a" in "atheist") is that atheists don't believe in God an are certain there is no God (as distinguished from agnostic), but now you're telling me about your definition of God: "the reification of the grace that occurs when we love one another". As IT people, we might have a technical sense of what "reify" means ...
So putting that aside, using the definition "to make (more) concrete", so according to you God is not abstract, God is concrete and the concretation (the opposite of abstraction) of "grace resulting from loving each other". Did I get that right?
Speaking of meta-level thinking: your attempt to invalidate my points, doesn't make you more correct. Right? :-)
Frank,
ReplyDelete“I'm not sure of your point ... are you trying to make me not believe? are you trying to convince me of something?”
I was attempting to learn from you. You are one of the fairly rare people (IME) who have gone from atheist to religious. I thought that such a conversion might have provided you with insights about the concept of god that people born and raised in a religion lack.
That’s why I peppered you with questions about the concept of god that I find incoherent and inconsistent. I was hoping that you, with your rare path to god, could help clarify a point or two—especially about the Catholic Catechism.
But it’s not your job to explain Catholic belief to me or anyone else. Sorry to put you on the “witness stand.” :) Such questioning sometimes works F2F, especially if beers are involved. They rarely work in written exchanges.
Thanks for taking the time to engage with me as much as you have!